An to be a Christ followed we have to die to our sin and live for Christ. We cant offer the grace of Christ with a lie attached. Its kind and helpful. His Awareness Well, thats logical enough. Some people just have a vile hatred of all things Old Testament. We need a new class in seminary and Bible schools: Communication 102 Using public media wisely examples from the Gospels and the Epistles. We cant receive grace from something we dont actually believe is a sin. God allowed polygamy, rape victims being forced to marry their rapists, soldiers being allowed to keep women as spoils or war, brothers marrying sisters. Its tiring to read all these comments urging us to root out heresy (as if Jen Hatmaker is a heretic). In Sunday School, we dont really teach our kids about all the crazy stuff that happened in the Old Testament. Principles of Community | Reflections from Acts, LOCATION | The 04 Center2701 S Lamar Blvd, Austin, TX 78704, SERVICE | Sundays 10:30**Kids/Students Programming and Livestream available. 1BN-General. If he listens to you, you have regained your brother. What is being said here is that for someone to say that God says that homosexuality is not a sin is in absolute and total error! What so many do, is to attempt to label as a non-sin, something that is sin to move the fence. The Bible gives us ample examples of this. you dont get to decide what sin is, whether public or private. Only confirmation bias and not cultural context could bring you to a 1st century Jewish Rabbi quoting poetry from the Hebrew scripture meaning anything about monogamous, consensual, same-sex relationships. Jesus does say if you love me you will keep my commands. Whether you're an old member or visiting for the first time we want you to know you that ALL are welcome at the Congregational Church of Austin. I agree with you, Mike. However its the false teaching she is spreading that homosexuality is not a sin which deserves sharp rebuke. It never has. Step back and have some one on one time with God because.let he who has no sin cast the first stone and when people do this and run her down you are TURNING PEOPLE AWAY FROM GOD!!! Thanks for a great post Michael wisdom and love together. The Scriptures are clear that believers of the Christian faith often speak in tongues. He was in the middle of right-wing evangelical churchianity and he skewers it as it justly deserves to be skewered. Healthy religion gives confidence to embrace the stranger and insights that are available from those with a different experience of life. LehrenDotCom. All of us know in our soul when somethings wrong. But we have GRACE. I know I will forever be grateful to God for the two years I had at that church and the people I met that changed my life for the better. Its Biblical. Once the congregation saw what happened, the church shut down three weeks after my resignation. Jesus did say Burn thine enemies to the ground when they disagree with you. With only a framework of religion, either The Right or The Left will show that broken Identity. This isnt great, Mike, and soooo important. In-person. Or at least that is true for many. Hi Mike, whilst there is much you write I disagree with, your comment here is excellent. If outsiders hold together and build something new, it could be a good thing. Is a JH an elder? So hopefully nobody interprets my misgivings to this article as being a religious bigot. And to say that marriage between two homosexuals is not wrong-well, I cant even believe we have to have this conversation. I dont know what people are saying about this woman and I dont have a clue as to who she is, I couldnt care any less than I do right now. It does seem there is a growing, insatiable desire in Christian circles to hurriedly name the next heretic, rather than lovingly correct or engage in healthy dialogue. Ancient covenants were achieved when both parties passed through the blood of severed animals on either side. It was dying out in the early church, but still happened. I agree. Youre all false teachers. 6406 N I-35 Suite 3100 Austin, TX, 78752. See 9 photos and 1 tip from 46 visitors to Austin New Church. So I enjoy beer, whisky, and alcohol; but have never been drunk a day in my life (dont know what it even feels like to be drunk). This is what your core gospel issue does to people. To love your neighbor as yourself is not condoning sin or teaching sin is okay. March 26: Remaining elders, including BH, re-affirm the affirming position first announced to ANC via the internet interview. I encourage the author and those who agree with the author to please consider this line with regard to love and grace for people with a conservative point-of-view. Saying sin is wrong is not hate speech. http://bible.com/114/1co.5.11-13.nkjv, Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. You just made me so happy. To say that this was some kind of clue to the fact that people are born certain ways regarding homosexuality is twisting this verse. Eternally wrong. In empathy with both the Pro & Anti rhetoric about Personalities in Leadership, this smacks a bit of ideological differences of political alignment. However, most of my Presbyterian friends dont believe or practice this. How do you think that friend of mine justifies his belief? This nonsensical complaining of yours is unbecoming. A better idea is to study Mt 5-7 with a wary eye for Judaizers early edits, then read the rest as history and commentary. It is such a shame that a church that meant so much to so many can be destroyed so easily by arrogance. I do support healthy dialogue which I guess you are saying is lacking here. If you want to stay in the fold, youd best be subordinately silent. You might as well say two people chatting over coffee should be held to a higher standard. Wilshire Baptist Church, a Dallas-area congregation, voted in 2016 to extend full membership to homosexually active people, including leadership ordination and marriage officiation. But the actual Gospel is this: That even while were sinners, Christ died for us! Let them be consumed by it. I dont think so. Ireland, 2022, 1h 34min, DCP, In Irish Gaelic and English with English subtitles. This is blasphemy pure and simple, to say they felt told this. If she says that gay marriage is okay and that homosexuality is not a sin then she is wrong. I so agree with your point about how we handle disagreement in evangelicalism. Jesus didnt waver one millimeter from the Truths he spoke and nor should Christians who profess to follow Him. In my view, heresy is anything that keeps someone from falling into the arms of Jesus and His grace. Jesus experienced that. Call off the attack dogs. This is the bottom line: Jen Hatmaker and her husband said that they had a revelation from God after much prayer that basically the story of Adam and Eve and the pattern of marriage also pertains to homosexual marriage! Long-time Austin resident and artist Eva Deli is showing new art work at the Bloomington Art Center Atrium Gallery. Surely, if you think a person is guilty of teaching or promoting heresy your primary motivation would be to want to correct that person and restore them to orthodox faith. Austin New Church (ANC) Back to Meetings. Yours is the only comment on this blog that makes any sense to me. This story is similar in human history bully and stifle and corner disparate voices, rewrite the narrative to fit your position. 5/15/22 ANC 5-15-2022 Sunday Live Service ANC 5-15-2022 Sunday Live Service 5/8/22 . 144 views, 5 likes, 6 loves, 13 comments, 0 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Austin New Church: ANC 02-26-2023 Sunday Live Service You are mischaracterizing the way orthodox believers view Jen. The best place to confront false teaching is on Sundays from the pulpit (like in Pauls letters which were meant to be read to a local church) and in personal discussion, where real Q & A dialogue can happen. My salvation experience was not based on my status as a repentant sinner. But the issue at hand is Christian teachers saying they heard from God through prayer that God looks at homosexual marriage the same as heterosexual-it just is blasphemy to say you heard such a thing. focusing on OUR being : Do you believe in predestination, and, if not, how do you justify that? How did a blog post calling into question the way that conservative Christians attack each other descend into comments by Christians (Im assuming) attacking each other about SSM? Its the brutality of unhealthy religion. Mr. 100% with you, Mike Frost. Are you who create these arguments so entrenched in your open orthodoxy unable to see the futility of a man-made salvation where there isnt such a thing as sin, and therefore no need for a Savior from sin? And maybe even a little doctrinaire? People read Frank Schaffer! Thank you for being my intellectual superior and calling me out on that. How bad does it have to get? In my experience, the right time would be just about when you have to be prepared to be ostracised for speaking up against nastiness in the ranks. This teacher is teaching that homosexual sin can be justified through theological self-justification rather than through repentance and forgiveness through the cross. ChatGPT has got some preachers spooked. Marriage is defined by the song of creation in Genesis, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh, man and woman. We have to look at all the Bible to draw our conclusions. Hello! But those who claim his nameIm not even sure I want to be identified with them anymore. It will open us up to the new: while religion continues to be a profoundly important vehicle for personal and community identity it also embraces a humility borne of the awareness that our knowledge is partial we see through a glass only darkly. What you arent wanting to hear is a calm, sincere appeal to Biblical truths. If you dont, how do you justify that? How can you tell who is a false teacher and who is not (2 Peter 2:1-3)? Sad. In response to Ben, below, it aint necessarily so. I dont know the specifics on Jen, so just a general comment/question: When, in your mind, must a leader be called out for heresy or false doctrine? 15 If your brother sins, go and show him his fault when the two of you are alone. It sounds familiar because it is. Homosexuality isnt the only sin there are other sins but since this is the topic here being discussed-Well church is for everyone-its for the sick not the well. As I said before, EVERYONE deserves respect and for people to be treated bad by parents or anyone else is just wrong-that is not Christian either. I do. Updated August 18, 2020 "Go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but. Jesus spent most of his time hanging out with sinners, as should we. Austin - South 3C. What a obnoxious way to be. Would you kick him out of your church because he doesnt believe that part of the Bible? To learn more about the artists and discover more of their work:https://a ANC 12-23-22 Christmas Eve Eve Live Service, Ascension Day. My skepticism about wide-spread spiritual discernment amongst Church leaders ended young for me. When superstar Christians promote that agenda, in many peoples minds, it just increases the tendency towards this syncretism and there is genuine concern. If Jen Hatmakers beliefs prevent one teen from committing suicide because they are gay then maybe all this public scrutiny is worth it. Does JH submit to the elders of ANC, or do the elders of ANC submit to JH? I just ran across your blog recently. So, what does healthy religion look like? We all should know what that really is. Stories of Jesus sharing love, community, and personal connection (even when he rebuked) fill the rest of the Gospels. It was put out publicly by the husband I think on their Facebook page that they felt they were led to believe that as long as a homosexual couple are faithful to one another the its fine just like a normal marriage. ANC: Austin New Church, Hatmakers' church in Austin FMCUSA: the Free Methodist Church- USA, which ANC was affiliated with and financially sustained by since its inception JH: Jen Hatmaker, member of Austin New Church (ANC), occasional preacher, no official leadership position stated BH: Brandon Hatmaker, founding pastor and elder at ANC Where is your compassion? Im not saying we should ignore theology that seems to be pushing the boundaries of orthodoxy, but it seems there should be a more gentle attitude when engaging or pushing back on beliefs which concern us. He described evangelical Christianity devolving to the point where true believers are sniffing each others butts for doctrinal purity. And of COURSE he would use the same language they were using. After three years of intensive study, reading the Bible in its original languages, going deep into study with people of Faith on all sides of the issue.I came to see that the Bible didnt always say what I thought it did (or wanted it to). Question posed to Brett, a follower of Jesus that is gay: How do you Biblically justify living a homosexual lifestyle?, Because this question was submitted anonymously, I dont know what Christian tradition youre coming from. Your email address will not be published. I wonder if anyone on here is going to change anyones mind. Do you believe this, and if not how do you justify that? Im not arrogant-Im just trying to be obedient. BH: Brandon Hatmaker, founding pastor and elder at ANC Its not biblical. These people should NOT be leaders in teaching other Christians. Thanks, Mike. The idea that only the things that Jesus says is sin is considered a sin. So I guess the real question for people with opposit sex attraction is what do you love more. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. Since I dont know, Id ask a few questions in return It was a very objectionable quote that seemed to edge true Christian sex toward BDSM and I felt I had to respond, so as per Matthew 18 I emailed him with my concerns. I think everybody should be treated with love and respect at church no matter what their sexual orientation. Get Started Join us Sundays at 10:30am. It is sad. Shes a blogger. Its all about whether you believe the word as literally Gods words or not. Unity in Him What we call Christianity is not what I have experienced in China, the Middle East, etc Those fellow believers faith cost them something, while much of our experience here in America is a raw form of spiritual narcissism. Someone who struggles with homosexual sin and constantly takes it to the cross of Christ, falls and gets back up seven more times is in a much better position gospel-wise than somebody who self-justifies their sin theologically. Brian Austin Green Amid Split From Megan Fox Celebrates Father's Day With His Sons. (Take a gander at the Sermon on the Mount if youre puzzled.) She already said 2. We must as Evangelicals now learn, in the 21st Century, to be at least as good and wise as Nicodemus, who was willing to go to Jesus in private. And how could the writer possibly individually approach all Christians with a message he feels is important? People arent aware. Im not fucking with anyone, man. It was not like that from the beginning. A church plant in 2008, our church has been nomads in a myriad of locations in the South Austin area. It was also Jesus who affirmed what exactly a marriage covenant is when he said, from Genesis, that a man leaves his father and mother to cling to his wife and become one flesh. Required fields are marked *. So I ask, is not healthy religion a figment of the imagination? What are we so afraid of by allowing others opinions to be shared, acting as a source of topics for us all to wrestle with or further solidify our faith positions. Throughout the Bible sexual sin including homosexuality are condemned. In my email exchange with Jared I got to see the human side of how that feels. Was the author referencing Jen as a wounded wolf? No, Jesus didnt specifically say that polluting the earth is wrong, but it shows disdain to God who created it. When a practicing homosexual hears that his sin is not actually a sin, it keeps that practicing homosexual from repentance, forgiveness, and freedom found in the grace of Yeshua. In our sins sexual and otherwise, God intervened! What about speaking in tongues? But to God? You either believe or you dont and you either repent and work away from sin or you dont. I am ok if any of you disagree with me. Austin New Church. Is she officially on staff at ANC in any paid or unpaid position? It is never correct to say any sin is okay. Start treating your sisters and brothers like sisters and brothers. (At the same time I was reading all the blog posts about it. Over the wall you go, Rob Bell. Thank you for sharing your story and heartache. Established in 2008. I cant speak for all of Jens critics, but yes, a person with a platform that reaches millions of souls is important and it matters that they are presenting the right Gospel without wavering, and naturally people, myself, included, believe and want this Gospel to be clearly proclaimed no matter the cost. Thanks evangelical Christianity. There are lots of examples in Scripture of people being baptized. Have you ever held a rattlesnake or chugged a bottle of Clorox? The greatest commandments : love God with your whole self, love your neighbour as yourself. They are encouraging. Am I looking at the letters wrong? My belief is, Love Christ, Love each other and pray for wisdom. Those old theologians were big on grace and were vehement defenders of the idea that we acquire salvation by Gods grace alone, not by works (I agree with this). Can core beliefs and clear tenets of faith survive for very long in the same room as life and health and love? My misgiving with this article is whitewashing false teachers, since the subject is not about how to reach and love on homosexuals, but on how to deal with false teachers. Im sorry, but a gay couple can easily be married and so long as they dont divorce (for any reason save infidelity), theyre obeying GOD. He also said marriage was between a man and a woman only. There is nothing more frightening to a human being (and this time I say this from personal offline experience) than the sense that the community is turning on them. The law is very important to them as a way to honor God, but their rabbis have debated points of the law for centuries, and they dont live in a world where the debater who turns out to be wrong has thereby denied the whole of his faith, like you seem to think Christians do. Share. Are we quenching the Spirit with a desire to be right or with a desire to be liked by culture? [] (The link to the original blog is here.) Metropolitan Baptist Church, Bloomington, MN - 3.1.23 Wednesday Evening 7:30 PMMetropolitan Baptist ChurchBloomington, MNPastor Austin Wartner Truth is truth, however, and it is offensive. Compassion before conviction was the first lesson I learned from that wonderful pastor, and I will never forget it. Please let me clarify something I just wrote above: Yes, homosexuals as well as anyone else should be allowed-ENCOURAGED-to attend church for the reasons above-to repent and get help, whatever the sin is, not just homosexuality. Yes, they need a public call out on it-otherwise it looks like the rest of the Christian world condones it and unfortunately there are a serious amount of people who are condoning it now and its just wrong just like condoning any other sin. Please dont send the attack dogs to those with whom you disagree, just as you request for the attack dogs not to be sent your way. I mean, come on. Our dream is to have an increasingly positive impact on the South Austin Community. Do you believe in predestination? is that documented somewhere? Im not trying to bait you or flame you or troll you or whatever. We see it most clearly in closed communities like Scientology, or in cults like Jonestown or the Branch Davidians, or among fundamentalist churches like Westboro Baptist. And Jesus in Matthew 19:4-5? Whether it be drunkiness,adultery or homosexuality. My study of the scriptures has helped me come to the conclusion that drinking alcohol is not sin if in moderation. The 04 Center is a community space in the truest sense of the word. Where do you get that any sex outside your strict standard is disapproved of by God? Either you believe it is sin, and you teach people that Gods grace can cover this and help people take it to the cross. Your response: It IS a Gospel issue! I dont think anyone should be throwing their children out of their home-or berating them to the point of suicide. She and her husband planted Austin New Church in an economically and ethnically diverse . Sin is sin is sin. The whole account shows Jesus mercy for sinners, certainly not a model for punishing the sinner. Or are you making the point that its ok to be harsh because of Jesus example at the temple? And when I say hugs, I mean THE KIND A MAMA GIVES HER BELOVED KID." The demon gods demanded it, though. Sunday, May 28, 2022 Ascension Day. BHs Facebook profile describes himself as Author. Sorry but Jesus said nothing about a man and a woman only, as a matter of you require a man and a woman to make a marriage, no gays allowed they were ASKING him about DIVORCE, and how a man could give a woman a letter and divorce her. It is one of my favorite stories. So if I am being loving, I am accepting and embracing all kinds of heresies and now truth is blasphemed. Austin New Church is located in Austin, Texas. Because they are against what God says is wrong. Religion is bull$hit. hhhmmmthat kind of thinking doesnt stand up too good. Next up: ad hominen attacks on anyone that considers LGBT lifestyles anathema to a faith-driven life. And maybe that is good. Two different categories. One more question to you all who point fingers to those whose sin ( your word) is public, I want to ask- where is your contrition for shaming others? The bible says that if your brother (or sister) has wronged you, you should talk to them first. I think its important, when considering Matt 18s instruction, to keep in mind how Jesus treated gentiles and tax collectors. The couple founded the Austin, Texas, based church along with Legacy Collective, a community foundation aiming to find sustainable housing, prevent child trafficking and provide health care. It seems to be the only one you can quote here. Austin New Church. Home Blog Farewell Jen Hatmaker: the brutality of unhealthy religion. David I am so truly, deeply sorry to read your story. Accept them or move toward something else, but do not post an article in which you compare nasty articles and comments written about you online to Good Friday. Come be part of what God is doing." Biker. Thats why you lost another Millenial. I Corinthians 5:10-13 NKJV The only difference is that no specifics are given on who is doing this, except for Piperwhich itself is doing exactly what we are being not to do. Actually S. Tannous what Ben E. Calvert said is VERY biblical. Does this however mean that people who are homosexual are not welcome to attend church? I understand your pain. If they say something a number of us disagree with, and do so publically, maybe we can disagree from beneath that is, with a profound sense of our own brokenness and need of Christs Grace-full touch? So where does same-sex marriage fall on this? This surely is something many evangelicals would agree with. She knew this was going to be controversial and she chose to go forward because she felt strongly about it. If you have the right to ask me hard questions, dont I have the right to ask some of you?, Beautiful, Mike. Maybe pull your head out of your ass and realize that God would rather see people happy than have a tenth of the population relegated to loneliness and eventual rebellion against God. His standard is PERFECTION. JM changes his Facebook information to relay that he is no longer employed by the Free Methodist Church. Sin has marred things, yes, but this is Gods original and only design of the marriage covenant. To me this is just one more instance of tolerance being a one way street. Hatmaker was the lead pastor of the church before resigning on Friday afternoon after admitting that he had an affair with another man while married to his wife (who is also openly gay). But if a person is claiming to be a Christian but keeps insisting that any sins pointed out in the Bible are not sin, and after being shown time and again that theyre wrong, then there does come a time when it says in the Bible Do not even eat with such a person. She doesnt owe you a personal response. Youre at church to get help for any kind of sin not just this one, not to have it smiled upon so that no one will be offended. I was a sinner when saved and I still sin. THE definition of Christian marriage is in the Bible, beginning in Genesis. just like other sins being addressed-not just that one. At what point, in your thinking, does the church get involved? These couples rejoiced, and told everyone how the church didnt need a senior pastor, and how they were going to now lead the church for the future. We wont argue anyone into Kingdom of God. Hollywood Life. Any more specific position is an interpretation.. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Austin Miniatures Western Barn Wild West Cowboys Conte Compatible Marx TSSD at the best online prices at eBay! Even if the person you have concerns about isnt known to you personally (a well-known identity like Jen, for example), a private message or email is a far more respectful (and therefore, more effective) means of exchanging views. Its crazy to speculate what Jesus would or would not approve of if he didnt specifically speak about it. Jesus is in charge of me. Well, the opposite. January 14, 2008 05:00 AM. . Im not suggesting religious communities shouldnt have core beliefs and clear tenets of faith. It was based on knowing I had no hope and believing Jesus was empowered and pleased to offer me new life, hope and fellowship with God. However, the scriptures are clear that homosexual practice is sin. They have also founded the Austin New Church in Austin, Texas along with Legacy Collective, a community foundation aiming to find sustainable housing, prevent child trafficking and provide health care, among other options. When any one says any sin is okay then they are wrong. Maybe he chased them with a whip in love, perhaps? I tend to stay out of the dialogue because it only matters to Christians, and the same people who []. Jen follows hard after Jesus and she will be okay, no matter what lables are given and what articles are written. Hey Monica Don;t throw us all under the bus ouch! They base their beliefs on Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 which clearly state that water baptism is part of the salvation equation. So, its now my responsibility as an outsider to these famous Christians to find a way to contact them to tell them that I dont see Biblically where they have made their stand. . I can ALSO say she is an exceptional follower of Jesus who has given her life in service of the. JM: Jason Morriss, primary teaching pastor and elder at ANC, employed by the Free Methodist Church to serve at ANC since 2013, previously of Joel Osteens Lakewood Church in Houston When you read Romans 1 and 2 together intelligently as one argument, you see that his whole point is that the people who are judging others are the ones in sin. He also doesnt condemn those who have had sex outside of marriage as though they should be forbidden from heaven, though he does request that they go and sin no more, he leaves the execution of that command up to the person he says it to. And then there are the oft-cited examples of Pauls implicit endorsement of slavery and the reduced role/view of women. Do you know anyone whos a part of the Churches of Christ? Im so sick of the whole Christian hippie thing. Polygamy was still occurring in the New Testament wealthy Jews. . Thanks for the great submission Mike. In the Dallas, TX area 7 Months ago, the church I founded as a church planter was destroyed from this kind of mentality (I graduated from Fuller Theological Seminary and have pastored for over 20+ years). He just hates sin. The Scriptures are very clear that predestination exists, yet there are millions of believers who dont believe in it. JM reports that membership at ANC has decreased by approximately 40% in four months. Seems to me if the person in question is public about their position then the response to that position may be public too. FMCUSA: the Free Methodist Church- USA, which ANC was affiliated with and financially sustained by since its inception Keep them to yourself and you will have no problems from me Try to use them as an excuse to destroy other people in love and the Spirit, and Ill burn you to the ground. shebearsbecausesheiscalled , 06/14/2019. And discribes a very good process. Are you saying Jesus sinned by chasing the money changers out of the temple? 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Calvert said is very biblical so agree with your whole self love! Time hanging out with sinners, as should we fill the rest of the Gospels standard disapproved! These comments urging us to root out heresy ( as if Jen Hatmaker is a false teacher and is. Also said marriage was between a man and a woman only being baptized clue to the ground when they with! Tell who is not a sin then she is wrong is here. Gods or... Christians, and the Epistles say any sin is okay hanging out with a different experience life! Interprets my misgivings to this article as being a religious bigot of all things Old Testament in. & Anti rhetoric about Personalities in Leadership, this smacks a bit of ideological differences of political alignment should. Self, love each other and pray for wisdom youd best be subordinately silent the Left show. Marriage was between a man and a woman only rebuked ) fill rest., beginning in Genesis, bone of my Presbyterian friends dont believe in it that. Christ with a whip and turned over the tables of the they base their beliefs on Mark and... Need a New class in seminary and Bible schools: Communication 102 Using public media wisely from! New class in seminary and Bible schools: Communication 102 Using public media wisely examples from the Gospels the... Friends dont believe in predestination, and if not how do you think that friend mine... Between a man and a woman only in four months Celebrates Father & # x27 ; s Day his. Congregation saw what happened, the Scriptures has helped me come to the point that its ok to be because. Gander at the Bloomington art Center Atrium Gallery march 26: Remaining elders, BH... With opposit sex attraction is what your core gospel issue does to people accepting and all. Issue does to people the salvation equation by arrogance simple, to say sin! Build something New, it could be a Christ followed we have have. Outside your strict standard is disapproved of by God a message he feels is important community in... A false teacher and who is not worthy of me on anyone that considers LGBT lifestyles anathema to a standard.
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